UO Evolution

Community => PVP Discussion => Topic started by: Emperor_Norton on February 10, 2017, 09:02:06 PM

Title: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: Emperor_Norton on February 10, 2017, 09:02:06 PM
This topic may be unpopular, and may step on some toes, but nothing worth doing is easy.  I'd like to take a moment to address the Parry Damage Deed and it's effect on PvP, and the issue of the dreaded "Mortal Spam".

Some time ago, I had a discussion over this topic with Dante, and he seemed surprised how the deed was being used, namely the Mortal Bow.  In theory, the idea behind the Parry Damage Deed seems fine, a way for players engaged in PvP to mitigate the over the moon stacking of Parry, allowing for 2-20% (depending on the value of Parry Damage) to bleed through the shield, and that's all well and good.  Where the deed has taken a nefarious turn, is its application on a weapon that has Mortal Strike, namely the "Mortal Bow".  You may ask "Why would this be a problem?", simply...there is no way to effectively mitigate the Mortal Wound, preventing you from healing hp from anything other than the use of the skill Spirit Speak (Spirit Speak is prone disruption, as even the spell Protection on a player will disrupt the skill) or life leech (I'm dubious about it's effectiveness in PvP).

Think for a moment about this, the bow, when using the Mortal Strike, will hit the target with a Mortal Wound every time it is used.  The damage "bled" through may only be a fraction of the initial damage of the strike, but it's effect never misses its mark.  Perma Mortal.  This is more devastating than adding a Mortal Strike onto a Mage's Fireball, as the defender has a "chance" to mitigate the effect by using Bushido's Evade Skill.  In the case of the arrow, there is nothing that can be done...aside from pray for a Remove Curse to not be interrupted, and run.

The Parry Damage deed could be used on ANY weapon, but the majority choose to use it on bows, either the standard "Bow" (for Mortal Strike) or the "Repeating Crossbow" that has a high amount of hit spells.  The reason for the Repeating Crossbow to be used is for it's sheer attack speed, the damage from the bow itself is minimal, but tack on "Hit Fireball, Hit Lightning, Hit Magic Arrow", it becomes one nuking little bow...that ALWAYS hits, as the Parry Damage is only for the weapon hit itself, not the spells that follow it (that continue to do full damage).

My opinion on the deed is well known, but with a little tweaking, I think it can still be a very viable item to have offered, but in it's current state...it absolutely breaks PvP.

Suggestions:  (sorry, I only have two)

Bring Mortal Strike to UO Pub 94 Standard (seen here:  http://www.uoguide.com/Mortal_Strike ), this would impart a delay after mortal is reset or cured...no longer "Perma Mortal".

Reduce the 120 second delay on utilizing the Enchanted Apple to remove mortal.

These, or the combination of the two would inhibit the spamming of Mortal Strike, and allow for much more diversity in PvP.  Although I could not come up with any other solutions, I hope these two may be considered.  The use of Parry Damage with other skills would still be a great advantage, and of course it would still be effective with Mortal, just not to the point where it is a death sentence to be stricken with it in a field fight or duel.

Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: joshuadt on February 11, 2017, 01:45:33 AM

I've also been wanting to address this topic for quite some time, but it seems that every time I bring something up on here, it just turns into a bash Blackhawk and his ideas session, so I typically don't even bother arguing anymore, but here's my two cents on the matter anyway....

So, these kits are definitely a cool idea, and a viable counter to, as you mentioned before Emp, the uber high parry skills on players here. I'm not gonna lie, I use them, so it's not like I want them to be removed or anything. But do they give anyone who has them on their bows an unfair advantage against someone who doesn't have them on their bows? Hell yes... Anyone who would deny that fact is a liar, or has no idea what their talking about, lol...

I agree, the property seems to be, for the lack of a better word, "bugged" to some extent. I agree that it just needs a little tweaking.

If you have 20% Parry Damage on your bow, shouldn't the weapon special (mortal, for example) only have a 20% chance of landing if it breaks through the parry, instead of a 100% chance? That would be a good first step.

Secondly, I also agree that there should be a timer between the time your mortal is removed and the next time you can become mortally wounded. As it stands, you can be mortalled literally the exact same time your remove curse goes off, or the mortal wears off naturally. And people are totally taking advantage of these bows for that purpose, effectively "dumbing-down" pvp standing there doing one move, over and over again(mortal, obviously), and making it not even fun for a lot of players who would otherwise be having a blast here... There were problems with mortal spammers on previous servers that I've played on that implemented a timer between mortal shots, and it worked out very well. It really helped to balance the problem. I want to say it was like 10 seconds, maybe even less, but it made a huge difference. Pvpers actually had to come up with tactics other than pressing mortal, mortal, mortal lol  : P

On a side note, I really don't think enchanted apples even work here to remove mortal, honestly. Some people I've talked to in-game about it swear by them, but I've done testing on them numerous times, and they never removed mortal. I've seen the mortal wear off 1-2 seconds after I ate the apple, but never at the same time as eating it, but I'm pretty sure that was just the mortal wearing off naturally after time. Even if the delay wasn't 120, I don't think it would help, if they aren't working as intended. Might need to look into that again, but i'm 99% sure they don't even remove mortal like they're supposed to, but it sure would be nice if they did work, i'll agree with you there.
Edit: I just tested the apples again to remove mortal, and they sure don't work, as of Saturday 2/11/17.

On a second side-note, is it true that you can add parry damage kits to weapons other than bows??? That would be great, but every time I've gotten a kit to use, it's in the shape of a fletching kit, so I just assumed it only worked on bows, so I didn't even try it on an axe or anything. That would be really cool if they did work on axes and such... really

Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: Sturger on February 11, 2017, 02:36:19 PM
*nods*  Something should be done...  Sounds like a parry issue the shard once had, long ago.

  Until I learn more about UOE's PvP system... I won't say more.

Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: VINDICATOR on February 12, 2017, 01:06:53 AM
Man i don't like this....Mortal blow, poison bleed attack should be crazy good like back in the day!!! only  thing i think should change is apples should work and every one should have access to them...maybe bods...and agreed with every weapon able to use them.
Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: asig on February 12, 2017, 01:20:13 AM
Instant mortal is definitely rough. Perhaps instead of modifying the kits, modify the ability? Adding diminishing returns in terms of length of mortal strike? For example: First hit 6 seconds, second hit 2 seconds, 3rd 1 sec etc. As someone who donated a good amount of money for these kits, I don't really want to see the kits gimped, but I'm definitely in favor of a change to the mechanics of MS to make it more balanced.

It looks like the enchanted apples aren't working, and that would be a good counter to the 6 second first mortal.
Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: asig on February 12, 2017, 02:49:28 AM
I haven't used the kits a yet, so I don't actually know how powerful they are. If they are way too overpowered, maybe they need to be adjusted. Definitely not against that if that's the case.
Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: Emperor_Norton on February 12, 2017, 12:10:11 PM
I am nearly 98% sure that Enchanted Apples have worked on this server in the past, but you are all correct, Enchanted Apples no longer (possibly never...my memory is sometimes hazy) work to remove Mortal Strike effects. 

I was thinking of another solution, maybe the Cleric Spell "Purge" could remove Mortal as well, and bring the cast time down to be faster than Remove Curse.  This would make the Cleric Spell Book more desirable too.

I'm glad that this topic has been an active conversation, lets keep the ideas coming.
Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: Expo on February 12, 2017, 12:39:23 PM
Yes keep up the discussion.

I like the idea of diminishing returns on MS, because that'll keep it viable but also make it less spammy. Enchanted Apples. Might have to take a look at those. I had thought Purge did remove MS and just about anything else.
Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: Emperor_Norton on February 12, 2017, 10:01:34 PM
Negative Ghostrider, pattern is full.  Purge does NOT remove mortal, would be pretty great if it did, and it casts about as fast as remove curse.  If it were a bit faster, and DID remove Mortal, it would make the Cleric Book more worth while (as some of the other spells have been nerfed to useless).

Just tested, Enchanted Apples do NOT work either.  :/
Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: joshuadt on February 12, 2017, 10:15:38 PM
I like the idea of cleric spell removing mortals, I was confused to begin with, why they don't. But, I disagree with making it faster than chivalry remove curse though, just because that would make it way better than the chivalry version, because the cleric spell doesn't require positive karma to work
Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: Emperor_Norton on February 13, 2017, 07:15:04 PM
Tossed the issue of the Apples not working in the Report a Bug section, that should at least give the problem of inactive Apples a little attention.
Title: Re: The Problem With Parry Damage:
Post by: joshuadt on February 20, 2017, 08:15:11 PM
very, very little, apparently : P